Should topless climbing be banned? (with Soraya Abdel-Hadi and Carlos Casas)

In this episode, Francesca is joined by Soraya Abdel-Hadi from All The Elements, and Carlos Casas of Colour Up Bristol, to talk about a London climbing centre banning topless climbing. this conversation was inspired by an Instagram post by Scottish Climber Robbie Phillips. See the post yourself here:

https://www.instagram.com/p/ChWgVDOMiMV/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y%3D 

We share our own thoughts on topless climbing/culture, toxic masculinaty in climbing gyms, whether the top-off ban is justified, and other possible solutions to make climbing centres more welcoming. 

Find Soraya on Instagram @sorayaearth and visit All The Elements.
Find Carlos on Instagram @carloscasash and find our more about Colour Up Bristol.

Links to all articles and a full transcript can be found in the shownotes at ontheoutsidepodcast.co.uk.

On The Outside is part of the Tremula Network, sharing unheard stories of adventure, nature and the outdoors. Find out more and listen to our other shows at tremula.network.

Transcript

[MUSIC starts - Bassbeat by Alex Norton: "Funky and upbeat, jangling guitars, a fat bassline and a full horn section create the perfect soundtrack to a late summer block party."]

FRAN: Hello and welcome to On the Outside, the podcast that shares diverse views on outdoors news.

[MUSIC ENDS]

FRAN  0:07  

Hello and welcome to On the outside the podcast that shares diverse views on outdoors news. My name is Francesca Terrell scarce I am the producer of on the outside and once again I am your host for today. And today's conversation. I'm quite excited to see where this one goes because we are focusing on just one topic, which I'll get into in a little bit. And we have two people here today to talk about it. One person you know from a couple of the previous episodes, she was in the Kendo festival episode and she was in the episode about the pentathlon Soraya Hi.

SORAYA  0:49  

Hi, I'm pleased to be back. So my name is Soraya I am a writer and an artist and I also do lots of things relating to the outdoors. I organise women's sailing trips looking at plastics and toxics in the ocean. And I also run a nonprofit called all the elements which is a network for everyone creating change on diversity in the UK outdoors.

FRAN  1:17  

Thank you, Soraya It is great to have you back on the show. And these second guest on the show today is somebody who hasn't been on the podcast before but has actually been talked about on the podcast before. Carlos a kiss of colour up Bristol. Hello. Welcome to the show.

CARLOS  1:38  

Hello, thank you so much for having me here, friend. It's it's quite an honour. So I appreciate your invitation. Thank you so much.

FRAN  1:46  

You're quite welcome. So we know a little bit about you because we we spoke about you in the Kendall Moon Festival show. And you You spoke on the climbing panel at Kendall mountain festival. And we heard a little bit about that from Soraya and Kirsty who were both present at that that panel. But can you give us a little bit of an idea for listeners? What it is you do with colour at Bristol?

CARLOS  2:12  

So we started collar up to celebrate and to promote diversity within climbing. It has expanded to much more than that, thankfully. And it just became like this really cool group of people that likes to climb and they climb together. But it's also a support group is also a really tight community. And it's many more things than that. And it just keeps growing and growing in all beautiful directions. But yeah, at a personal level, I just love climbing and I love using climbing as a vehicle for better things or for more things. So I'm not too fussed about the sensor about how hard you climb but about what you do with your climbing. Yeah, beautiful.

FRAN  2:50  

So it's a community group that really resonates with a lot of people that are on the podcast. And the reason that I wanted to speak to Carlos today and the reason that Soraya is on as well is that this is going to be another episode which is very focused on climbing and particularly climbing culture and indoor climbing and climbing gyms

SORAYA  3:13  

and naked men

FRAN  3:15  

and naked.

CARLOS  3:19  

Dressed at the moment, I just want our listeners to know that.

FRAN  3:28  

I've given myself a really bad segue there now but let's see what we can do. And Soraya I'm gonna hand this over to you very quickly because basically a conversation which we started having on WhatsApp, and then we decided this is a good conversation for a podcast. And so we decided to record it and invite Carlos along so that it's not just us talking about the conversation.

CARLOS  3:56  

You're representing all men in the world.

FRAN  3:58  

Oh man in the world. Okay.

CARLOS  4:00  

Okay. Yeah. Easy.

FRAN  4:03  

But yeah, sir, I if you want to give us a little bit of an insight into the catalyst for this conversation.

SORAYA  4:11  

So Fran messaged me and sent me an Instagram post, and I believe your message was, I feel like you might have an opinion. She clearly knows you very well know. That's what I was going to say. Thank you, Carlos. I was like, weirdly, I do have an opinion. So the post was from a climber who was saying that a London wall had recently told all people, I assume it was aimed at all people, not just men, you have to wear your tops when you are in our centre. No topless climbing, essentially. Now, the post itself was very, he was trying to be very balanced. He said that his opinion was the It, it shouldn't matter. And it was more about people's attitudes, maybe the attitudes of people who walk around, I was going to say strat, which was going to be like putting in a little bit of my opinion into this, just like wind it back a little bit, who walk around without their tops on, and that he didn't feel like everyone should be penalised for the behaviour of a few people. And it touched on a number of different things, including like whether male climbers can perform as well with their tops off in hot weather. And also talked about it being the same as women wearing gym clothing, which I was very confused about, but maybe we can delve into that in a bit more detail further in. And it's something that's come up for me actually quite a lot. When I used to work as a climbing instructor. I remember a mum came up to me when I was teaching a class once, and she kind of like sidled up to me. I'm doing like the little sidle just for callers. And I'm Fran, and said to me, do you not find it distracting? She literally said it like that. And I said, What? She was like the naked men. And I had not even noticed I was so desensitised to it. It's such a normal sight in climbing centres, especially around the bouldering wall. Like you don't really see it with ropes climbers so much, probably because it's actually quite uncomfortable, but definitely around the bouldering. Wall. And yeah, I realised that actually it is it's a problem for some people. So I'm really interested to know what Carlos thinks. And then I have loads more opinions. I have a divided opinion on this. I have like, I have two main thoughts. But I want to see if Carlos has the same main thoughts. And I know the thoughts that Fran has. Carlos, do you climb topless?

CARLOS  7:01  

I have climbed topless once. And I don't like doing it. I don't know why. I don't like when I see guys in the climbing gym being topless. I just feel like it's a bit too over the top. No pun intended, but I just wouldn't ban it. I don't like the idea of banning a certain behaviour or a certain style or a certain expression. Unless there are you know, right reasons for it, or at least reasons. So I think my main my main question with this ban is why? Like, I cannot seem to see my head train of thought that takes me to okay, it's a good idea to ban it. I don't really understand it. And yeah, I mean, some people might feel uncomfortable, because of it, I assume. But then is it the act of being without a shirt? Or is it something that is linked usually to that, which is like all this toxic culture that we see in bouldering gyms or in climbing gyms. And that goes way beyond what you're wearing? I think that, for me is a real problem, and not how much clothing you decide to have on you. But those that align with what you think.

Unknown Speaker  8:16  

Yeah, I think that is a really interesting couple of things that you picked up on there, which resonates with my thoughts on it a bit as well and resonates quite a lot with the original Instagram post because he was saying, possibly not as eloquently but a very similar thing as to whether it it has to do with the lack of top or whether it's to do with the perceived culture around that and the type of people that potentially go topless. And Carlos you said there that you've done it once and then you didn't personally feel like it felt right for you or it felt needed. Yeah. Can you remember when you first started climbing in a gym? Is it something which which was noticeable to you as a oh, people are people are topless in here? Yeah. Other gyms that you don't necessarily see people or don't even know if you're allowed to be topless in other regular gyms.

CARLOS  9:18  

Yeah, I think for me as well, since I only started climbing when I was like 23. It was you know, I had already a lot of experience of going to gyms briefly. But then when I went to a climate Doom, it was like, you could definitely see the change. And for me at that time, you know, because you're a dude, you don't think about it. You're like, okay, yeah, some of them are topless, whatever. But as Ray said, you so you get used to it so quickly, and you just don't register it anymore. You don't see it anymore. And maybe that's the problem here maybe like we're so used to it that we want to challenge it or perceive it as something wrong. But again, I just cannot seem to understand that Why it's so bad? Or why is it something that should be banned? And this is coming from someone that strives to make climbing, the most inclusive and safe spaces possible, like this is something that concerns me. And this is something that I want to happen. I want everyone to feel comfortable in a climbing gym. But I feel this isn't one of the avenues that I would personally take. I don't know if that answers your original question. That was something completely different. But I just decided to rant.

Unknown Speaker  10:31  

Yeah.

SORAYA  10:33  

So I have two very split thoughts on this. The first one is that people should be able to dress and wear whatever they want, like there is like, so I'm agreeing. And also talking about the attitude that usually comes with it. That's also something but but having people climbing topless, is intimidating for some people. It's intimidating for not for everybody. But it can be intimidating for new people, for beginners, for people who aren't used to seeing people without tops on. And my thing is, is I don't feel like I feel like banning is one way of tackling that issue. It's not necessarily tackling the cause. But it is one way of like helping that problem, if that makes sense. Because they're they're a very, like, we know, we all know, climbers who climb with their tops off, they have, most of most of the time have amazing bodies. That's where they're confident, like taking their tops off and climbing, right. It's triggering for people who have body issues. It's problematic for people who are already thinking, Am I a climate? Should I be here in this space? But we all know that actually, most of the time, not all of the time. But most of the time, if you tap one of those guys on the shoulder, and you're like, Hey, can you tell me about x? Or, you know, what's going on over here? Or can I climb that? Usually they're friendly. Yeah, they just look like they're not friendly, because they're built like Greek gods. And they're like walking around. And because they've got all the muscles, they climbing like everything. That actually when you speak to them, they're usually really friendly. So one of the things that I used to do is if I had a group of adult beginners, and there were climbers that I knew on the bouldering wall, when we did the bouldering intro, I would introduce them. And depending on who they were, it would be a different introduction. It might be like, Hi, you know, this is this is Steve like Steve's lovely, or it might be a bit more heavily. Like, that's Craig, ignore him. Yeah, just ignore it. He's gonna do that. Just Just ignore him. But I think no encouragement. Exactly, exactly. So I think there needs to be another solution. But I don't know what that other solution is. Because you can't be there to supervise people all the time. You can't be there to be the person who's like, don't worry. They're not as intimidating as they look like. And very soon, you won't even notice that they're doing that.

Unknown Speaker  13:12  

Yeah, I have a couple of follow up questions to this then Soraya. And my first one is, you gave us a bit of a anecdote earlier about a woman at the climbing gym when you were working there who was uncomfortable with these these guys that had their tops?

SORAYA  13:30  

I don't know. I don't know if she was uncomfortable. Her words were? Don't you find it distracting?

Unknown Speaker  13:38  

Oh, interest? This was fine. Yes, this is that's that was me reading into it, then that changes? The answer to this question, I think rather significantly in that case. So this is going to be a two part question. What did you do in that situation? Was there any actions you took as a staff member when she said that to you?

SORAYA  14:04  

I was teaching a class. And it's like I was I was tailing ropes. I had a grip on the wall. So my action was, Oh, I think I said something like, oh, I don't even see them anymore. Like, I don't even notice it. So do I find it distracting? No. But yes, they do do that. Just kind of like normalising it, I guess. And she took that quite well. But I guess the other thing that I'm thinking as I'm talking about this is I was teaching a kids class. And we know that what kids look at, like, what they see around them influences what they who they think they should be what they think they should look like, like how they like all of those things. And I I don't know because I've never really thought about it. But I wonder how much of an impact. I mean, we know there's problems with eating disorders within climbing and there was that document Tree that wasn't too many months ago light, which was talking about eating disorders within climbing. It would be, it would be a lot to say that it's it's directly connected to men climbing with their tops off, because it's so much more than that. But I am wondering whether there is a, there's something in that as well that we should probably be paying a little bit more attention to. I mean, centres are not just for adults, are they? Yeah, I don't know.

Unknown Speaker  15:28  

So my second question then is, if somebody, if somebody came up to you as a member of staff and said that they were uncomfortable, would there be any protocol for that? Is that something that you would have to make a judgement call,

SORAYA  15:44  

or I don't think there wouldn't have been any official protocol. But if somebody had come up to me and said that to me, depending on who the person was, who approached me, and depending on who the person was, who was climbing, I might have had a conversation. I don't want to, I'm trying to think of a way to word this because it's not it's not coming out correctly. But it's, there's a difference between feeling uncomfortable with something a valid, like, I feel uncomfortable, because it makes me feel like X Y, Zed and complaining about something? Because it is something that you do not like, like, do you see what I mean? Like, yeah, something that makes you feel horrible inside and uncomfortable. And unsettled is a completely different thing to being like, I don't think people should be allowed to climb but their tops off? Yeah. So it depends, it would depend a little bit on the approach.

CARLOS  16:42  

Yeah, I work at a climbing gym at the moment. And we don't have any, like specific protocol for it. But it's something that I hope that if it happens, the person that is without their top would be can I say as holding this book, can say what you want be not an asshole. Besides, who are their top again, if someone is like, visibly uncomfortable because of it. But as you said probably would be a judgement call. There's like, at least in my centre, there's no protocol to go about this just to add up the serious answer.

Unknown Speaker  17:15  

Yeah, interesting. And I think that that difference between something that a person feels uncomfortable around versus something that makes people uncomfortable, is a very difficult line to toe. Because I mean, we had the conversation about pregnant climbers a couple of months ago now. And I was saying that I find pregnant bellies really weird. It, it makes me feel very, like strange looking at them, particularly when they're out and climbing and stuff like that. But I'm not going to turn around and go. Pregnant bellies should be covered because I feel uncomfortable looking at them, because we don't see them that much. So I very much sounds like very similar to both of you feel like there's a certain amount of new neutrality.

FRAN  18:12  

Somewhere, there's a certain amount of neutrality, with bodies and that kind of thing, that if you, if you own a space together, and you're trying to make yourself comfortable, maybe you shouldn't be so concerned with what other people look like. And I think that's something that seemed to come up quite a lot in the Instagram post. And some of the comments that were on there, there was quite a lot of things to do with, does it does it matter? Why you looking, I think was in there with a couple of them and that kind of thing. So then there's the second layer to it then, which is is it less to do with the actual act of taking the top off? And is it more to do with the culture around

SORAYA  18:59  

bros

FRAN  19:00  

fold during and Bros and bolder bros? And there was a couple of things that I sent over to both of you. I don't know if you both managed to

CARLOS  19:12  

read it. It was just I did my homework. Tick, tick. Thank you.

SORAYA  19:17  

I also I also did my homework. And it wasn't just Carlos who didn't say I also did my homework, double

FRAN  19:24  

tick, double tick. And it was a couple of different threads that were some of them quite old. Some of them are going back seven years and some of them are nothing to do with climbing at all. It was just to do with what do you think of men with their tops off in the summer? And this this thread that happened on Instagram last week and a thread that happened in UK climbing seven years ago. It was exactly the same conversation. So there's obviously something that needs to be talked about there and the The guy that posted the Instagram post, Robbie Phillips, quite a famous climber from the look of it. I'm not a climber, so I don't, I don't know these people. But that post had a lot more engagement than his other posts. So there's a lot of people that have a lot of opinions on this as well. It's not just a kind of simple answer to things. I don't know where I'm quite going with this, I suppose my serene looks like she might be able to translate for me.

SORAYA  20:30  

It was more than I was just thinking that I think it's also related to the fact that the climbing community and not a community that likes to be told what to do, like generally, like that's not, that's not at all just like men with their tops off. Generally, climbers are quite independent, they are doing a sport, which until very recently, it was very out of the mainstream, it wasn't something that you would see a lot of people doing. I think people I think they just don't like being told what to do. So I think the reason why I had so much engagement is because everyone was like, what, how dare you. I am a human in this world. And I am allowed to do whatever I want.

CARLOS  21:14  

I'm like, I don't even take my top off. And I feel like attacked in a way, like this a bit much. But I just don't understand that. Like, that's my thing. I just don't see where it's coming from.

SORAYA  21:26  

I feel attacked. And that's because I feel quite protective over the guys that I know who do climb with their tops off. And I like a lot. Like don't want them to be tarred with this brush. But equally, I, you know, I don't it's it's complicated.

CARLOS  21:42  

And at the same time, it's really easy. Like, it is complicated, but at the same time, it's really easy. Like, can you can you wear a shirt? If you have to? Most people would say, Yeah, they'll still go and climb in the same gym. But I think what we're gonna end up with is a community that is going to have the same flaws as it has now. But people are going to be wearing their shirts.

There's so many things that I would consider binding before binding topless guys. Okay, I wouldn't. I wouldn't, you know, I don't have it with me. I don't have it with me. But definitely some words that I hear too often in climbing gyms. Before banning, let's say someone being without their shirts, and attitudes as well. But obviously, how you police? How do you police an attitude? How do you make sure that you're eradicating it? And going back to it binding something doesn't mean that it's necessarily not going to happen, or it's not going to be the preferred way of doing something. You're definitely taking it out of the equation if you're binding tops off in a gym. But again, and this is why I keep insisting on is that gonna change all of the other toxic behaviour that usually characterises a top soft climber? Are they going to put their shirt on and then all of a sudden they're going to be nicer and better people and be more friendly towards newcomers? I don't think so. So I think we should be focusing more on that and less on what we're wearing.

FRAN  23:20  

I'm gonna throw a spanner in the works here as somebody that is an essentially isn't part of the climbing community. I know quite a lot of people that are climbers, but I could probably count on two hands how many times I've been in a climbing gym in the past, like five years, you know. So it's not something that I particularly feel comfortable in that space. I certainly don't think that it's necessarily the lack of tops that makes me feel like that. Like, like Serena said, I probably didn't really notice when I was in the air, whether somebody was wearing a tarp or not. But I'm I find I'm, I'm coming at it from the point of view of a kind of like customer service experience, essentially in a customer experience in that. I think there is a little bit of naivety in the idea of climbing being this community where you're part of the community, you're all friends together and that kind of thing. And I think that that is one of the things that maybe when you're part of it, that's great, but for individuals who are coming in who don't have that kind of like group affiliation, whether that is an affinity group like colour up Bristol or whether that is a gym, that you you know, and you know, the folks in to say kind of like it should be self regulating, I think is not practical, because at the end of the day, if you are wanting a truly diverse space, you're going to have clashes because everybody needs something different from a from a space that they want to be comfortable in. So is that something that as staff members and as gyms, that that needs to maybe start being more regulated? And it may be staff need to start intervening? More? I mean,

CARLOS  25:29  

I exactly what I think I just it's a tough one.

SORAYA  25:34  

Yeah, it's really hard. Because the thing is, is that any operating community, like whether it's a yes, okay, the more people you have, the more complicated it is. But whether it's a gym, or it's a town, or it's a school, or like any of those things have a mix of people. And they have a load of norms and rules. Sure. But actually, most of it is still self regulating the way that people treat each other, like how inclusive it is, is, it's led by the top shore. And I think Carlos would agree with me that all of the usual things apply and customer service or climbing wall, right? You're not rude to other people, you know, there's no, there's no hate speech, there's no bullying, there's no like, there's and there's very specific climbing, like norms, which are like, you know, don't climb on a route that someone else is like, trying to use it. There's a whole load of things. I think it's maybe more about helping people who are starting understand what those norms are. Basically, what I'm saying is, is I think that there's a role to play for both rules and norms. I think the issue is that policing what people wear, and what they look like, and how they show up as the like authentically as themselves or wall, in a sport that has always valued individuality. And, you know, breaking away from cultural norms is always going to be controversial, it's going to be difficult. I know, I talked about kids earlier, and I'm immediately in my head, I'm like, why would I even say that, because kids should be able to see all parts of human bodies. The problem is, is that only seeing the Greek gods of the bodies, that's, that's my thing about it. It's what Carlos was saying, everyone should be able to be like, have themselves hanging out, we should see representations of all bodies in all forms. And my issue is that if you only ever see the fit people, if you only ever see the chiselled people, then you're putting forward a vision of a world that actually none of us want to live in. Right? Exactly. It's complicated. I think basically, what we need to do is just ban or the ban or the bad behaviour, that's just a bit how do we do that? How do we maybe what we should have is we should have a we should have Carlos as our friendliness officer. And yeah, and you can just walk around to the boardroom wall, like introducing people to each other and being like, hello, this is whoever, he's very friendly, even though he's still he's not wearing a top, and he will show you how to find that.

CARLOS  28:25  

So I feel like, again, up until this point, we're not complaining about the people being topless. But everything that we said so far, it's mostly about an attitude associated to the fact that they're not wearing a shirt. But I don't know, I just feel like it's putting more red tape into something that doesn't need it.

SORAYA  28:46  

So the question is, Well, you're right. It's about the behaviour. And it's about the stereotypes. Okay, I'm massively stereotyping. But I think that is the sort of person who is attracted to behaving in the way that we're discussing. Right? Yes, or being perceived in that way. Because I know plenty of climates like I was saying earlier, who would climb with their tops off and are lovely human beings. Like we're not here to criticise the lovely ones. Yeah. Everyone should be allowed to experience the climbing centre how they want, but a little bit like in hiking, where we're telling everyone to say hi to someone when you pass them in a hiking, right. Someone new approaches the boardroom, and this does happen all the time in walls across the country, across the world. You approached the boardroom wall. There is someone there with their top off, they've just stopped to like, look at that problem. And they are they're like, hi, and you're like, Oh, hello. Hi. They smiled at me and they said, Hi, that's fine. You don't need to have any further conversation. Yeah. It's just a welcoming attitude.

CARLOS  29:49  

Yeah. Which I think it's key.

FRAN  29:56  

I can't figure out which one but a London climbing centre has banned it. And some of the comments, were saying that there were other bouldering centres and climbing centres that have had no tops, bands for a while. Yeah, so the question is, in turn, or my question is in terms of being able to offer things to everybody, perhaps there should be some places that do banner, or perhaps there should be some times at which you know that you're going and you're going for top on climbing session. Like you have the you know, slow lane swimming sessions and open swimming sessions.

SORAYA  31:04  

you say, is the same as swimming in a slow lane?

FRAN  31:09  

I'm saying get that I'm wondering if that's one of the things that maybe if you if there is some concern that people might find it uncomfortable for people to be topless, maybe there is a compromise there where you can have sessions that are completely topped.

SORAYA  31:31  

I think that's an interesting idea. The first thing I thought though was that it reminded me of Pitch Perfect.

CARLOS  31:40  

I haven't seen it.

SORAYA  31:41  

Okay, so I haven't seen it over. That's why you both looked at me blankly. You have a thought, right? Anyone else with a laugh? It's a bit of an out there reference. It's basically a teen film about acapella groups. And what happens is they all have their own different styles and cultures, right? So some of them wear certain clothing, or they approach things in a different way. Or they take certain musical styles, and then they all come together for the competition, and they will display they're different. They're different. I don't know. I don't know how horses Yeah, the different tool shows. I don't know how I've got into this whole I just was thinking as I was talking, I was like, How have I ended? It doesn't matter. So we're out the acapella competition. And what I was thinking is that you can imagine that if you had some gyms that were like top on gyms, and some that were like topless gyms, that you're going to, like see them, like come into their, like climbing competitions, like in their different styles like, oh, that's the vest centre. I went over that, oh, that's the top plus one. And then it'd be super interesting to know, like, whether it did actually end up attracting different people, because some of the threads were saying, Oh, well, if they ban tops, I'll just go to another centre that was oh, sorry, not ban tops make me wear tops, I'll just go to another centre where they let me go topless. And so like, if you did that, would you end up with like pockets of like, different personality types, depending on what top they were allowed to wear or not wear? But in principle, I've my answer to that would be maybe I don't know how popular it would be. But it might depend. Like we talked about barriers to different groups coming into into climbing or into different sports, right? That sort of thing might be appealing for particular groups of people, I don't know.

FRAN  33:35  

Because we obviously have affinity groups, and like, obviously, all women climbing or underrepresented genders in general is a very common thing in a lot of sports. But I don't know, I mean, it'd be interesting to see if it's that kind of like between where people don't necessarily want to just climb with women, maybe they they do want to meet with men as well, for whatever reason.

SORAYA  34:01  

Just close man, but yeah, just

FRAN  34:03  

men, but yeah, wherever that is, whether that's culturally whether that is from personal experience, or whatever, that is just something that maybe maybe it does, like put people off to have that option. But

CARLOS  34:17  

yeah, I think ultimately say wherever they would be climbing. Yeah. People will. If I cannot think of anyone going to a new gym and being like, yeah, I cancelled my membership at the other gym because they wouldn't let me take my top off. Like, I don't think that person exists.

FRAN: 34:38  

I feel like that person exists.

CARLOS  34:40  

They think that wow, what are your what a fragile ego I know.

SORAYA 34:44  

Right? So do we do we care? That's the question. If they're if they're the sort of person who's going to quit a gym because they're told that they have to put their tarp on. Are we worried about the loss of them from our community? Probably not.

CARLOS  35:02  

Not about the individual, probably, but about the precedent that that it makes. I don't know. I'm just worried that you would be focusing your brain or your energies in policing clothing instead of other things. That's my main concern here.

SORAYA  35:20  

I think you're right. I don't think it's about the tops at all. I was thinking about the comparison in the original posts between women wearing sports, clothing, and then wearing tops, which I thought was not it didn't come across as what he meant. I think what he was saying is that obviously you can wear like sports bras and like you can you can reduce your amount of clothing quite a lot, as a woman. And the thing that I was going to say about it is I feel like, Why does a rule about whether or not men should wear tops have to drag women? What women wear? Yeah, so the conversation, because there was a lot of like, well, you know, you know, what women wear is incredibly distracting when they're like, and I just say, are you really gonna go down that route? Are we really gonna go through historically how women's clothing has been policed and how women's like bodies are seen? I just wanted to say that I don't think we need to, like tackle the issue as the as the actual issue. Like, Let's not drag in like these other. I think there would be uproar, obviously, if women were climbing topless, right. Like that would be optimal. And that's inequality in itself. But it's just so frustrating to see a conversation which actually is about men's bodies then being turned into being about women's bodies. How did that happen? It's always about women's bodies. Leave us alone.

FRAN  36:56  

Yeah, and there's always there's there's always the conversation of every Well, I I would love it if we could all go topless Winky? Yeah.

CARLOS 37:06  

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  37:08  

At least one always at least one

SORAYA  37:10  

I'd like to throw in there as well, that there were a lot of men. I'm not talking about the guy who did the original Instagram posts, because I think he handled that side of it quite well. But there are a lot of men in some of the threads who were like, I definitely can't climb as hard with a tarp odd. Like,

CARLOS  37:26  

that's ridiculous. Yeah, no, that's like, Oh, if I don't take this layer of like, you know, 100% cotton or whatever. If I don't take that off. I'm just gonna die. I'm just gonna go to the climate team and perish. That's, that's my last day on earth. Because I didn't take my top off. That's ridiculous. That's a lie.

SORAYA  37:46  

We do love and excuse your head. We do. We do love and excuses of climate though. Right? Like it's a it's it's yeah, it's another it's another high gravity day.

CARLOS  37:56  

Yeah, exactly. Maybe this ban was made by people that climb with their tops off because they cannot climb as hard. But now they have an excuse. Guys, I saw I sold the issue.

SORAYA  38:07  

I was I was climbing. I was really like I was crushing it. But now I have to have the top on. Never. jugs only

Unknown Speaker 38:21  

jumps only

SORAYA  38:23  

climbing climbing reference. A jog is a type of climbing hold. It's the type of climbing holder easy

CARLOS  38:30  

to hold. It's very nice. Okay, yeah,

FRAN  38:34  

this was useful context. Sorry. Carlos, is there anything that is coming up for you and colour at Bristol that you would like listeners to know about?

CARLOS 38:50  

So we're approaching our second birthday, which I'm really excited about. Happy birthday to us. Yes, for our birthdays in late September. And we have planned a trip to the peak districts. We're going to be doing some climbing there over the weekend, one of the weekends in September beginning of October. And I am excited about it because we might invites members from some other groups that are also working for a more diverse and more inclusive climbing community. So it's gonna be like a big issue get together, which I'm really excited about. And apart from that, we're still doing our weekly meetups. We're still climbing very often. And we're welcoming everyone that wants to climb with us tops on or tops off with tops on prefer

FRAN  39:37  

and which centre is it that that's up?

CARLOS  39:40  

So we climb at flashpoint in Bristol and we also climb at the mothership, which is part of TCA here in Bristol as well. And well this is gonna be like once this airs, this has happened already but we are also visiting Swansea. So we are trying to build communities in so uncIe and also in Swindon, we're trying to visit there every so often. So that people there if they have a similar project, we can offer them help. And we can also foster an inclusive climate community in these two places. So yeah, hit me up if you're in Swansea or in Swindon, and you feel like you want to change your local climate scene will help you

FRAN  40:20  

beautiful. And Soraya is there anything that you would like to leave with our listeners.

SORAYA  40:28  

So all the elements is doing as usual, lots of different things. But we're collaborating on an event in September with the wage a and Natural England where we are doing lots of sessions to help leaders and groups, like just do more stuff, do more of their amazing stuff, which I'm really excited about. There'll be content coming out from that, because we want to help groups and individuals who couldn't make it to the actual event. So if you are running a group and you're developing a group, or you just have an idea, keep an eye out for that. The content will be coming out on our channels in October. Other than that, we're going to be running our regular socials. And we're still building our directory and our resources. So if you have anything, that you go to our website, you're like, my group's not here or I really just listened to this amazing podcast with x, then tell us and we can add it and build it to your store that's going on. I think that's it.

FRAN  41:32  

Thank you to Soraya and Carlos for that conversation. It was really interesting to get their insights on it. And as you can hear, there was a lot of agreement and some disagreement in it, which is part of what this podcast is all about. I would love to hear your views on this as well. Do you think that climbing centres should ban topless climbing? Do you think that there should be sessions where topless climbing isn't allowed? And do you think that staff should be more involved in regulating behaviours in climbing centres? Let me know you can get in touch with us at ontheoutsidepodcast@gmail.com  Or you can get in touch with us on Twitter and Instagram. It's @OnTheOutsidePod on both. On the outside artwork is by Sophie Nolan music is bass Beats by Alex Norton. This episode was produced, hosted and edited by myself. And this podcast is part of the Tremula network adventure and outdoor podcasts off the beaten track. If you'd like to find out more about that head to Tremula.Network. Thank you very much to Soraya and Carlos for being on the show today. And of course, thank you all for listening